DZ
DefZone.Net

Kien thuc cong nghe & giai tri

Wiki Article

Talk:Amman Citadel

Nguồn dữ liệu từ Wikipedia, hiển thị bởi DefZone.Net

Xem trên WikipediaBài ngẫu nhiên khác


If merged, do it properly

[edit]

i.e., not one big porridge. Each site well separated and described.

The Umayyad Palace has a good chance of growing too big to fit in; if that happens, it must be separated again.

Where is the watchtower? Arminden (talk) 10:12, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Also: whoever merges other articles into this one should pls. go through the list of "What links here" and adapt by hand, one by one. I've spent hours I didn't actually have doing this for the Great Temple ("Temple of Hercules"). Arminden (talk) 18:15, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Writing an art. is something else

[edit]
  • History of the site
  • Archaeology, written sources; which remains date to which period
  • History of archaeological research
  • What of the museum display is still there

Merging stubs as such is an exercise in futility. Arminden (talk) 10:19, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Temple not to be called "of Hercules". Why not?

[edit]

Pls. contribute if you can to the discussion at Talk:Philadelphia (Amman)#Temple not to be called "of Hercules". Why? Arminden (talk) 18:20, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Arminden (talk) 01:53, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Add material please, don't remove legit empty sections

[edit]

Qalb alasid, hi! Thanks for cooperating on this topic I care a lot for. I'm gathering here the last few points we didn't quite seem to agree on yet.

  • Ayyubid tower: pls merge, don't remove. Pls don't forget to do it by the book (using the proper prescribed mechanism, so that the talk-page is also merged; improvising manually is not a good idea, I've learned it the hard way). All "What link here" items must be updated, too.
  • Byzantine church: pls write, don't remove. Plenty of good sources now already listed & linked.
  • History: same as for Byzantine church.
  • The Umayyad cistern is very relevant, a huge & well-visible structure, essential for the qasr. The unsourced text was there already. The new, clear structure is needed - and makes problems better visible, as you can see, but doesn't create them. This is not the only unsourced passage, no reason to remove it: better look for sources. I've done my part, that's it for a while.

Thank you. Arminden (talk) 02:21, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Arminden - glad to collaborate. I think there is a lot of room for improvement on the article. Lets work on cleaning it up and making it better! Qalb alasid (talk) 02:27, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi! Sure, but first it needs to be expanded: there is nothing on the history of the place, including the Bronze Age with its massive fortifications and the Iron Age = time of the Ammonites. Not to talk of the church, the cistern and most of the qasr, plus the medieval tower. So going again & again through existing sections doesn't seem at all urgent to me, considering how many huge white holes there are.
I'll try hard to stay in the real world, but I'm sure to pop in at some point.
Enjoy! Arminden (talk) 02:37, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. I'll continue to add material as I get time. Thank you. Qalb alasid (talk) 16:33, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The 3 terraces

[edit]

Who has found a map indicating all 3? Usually the middle & upper one are not inscribed as such, being densely covered by archaeological structutes which take all the available space on site plans. It is not easy to figure out the official topography, and "knowing how the site looks like" ain't RS :) Eithout describing the topography first, the article can't take off and develop beyond being a crowded stub, since topography dictates everything else (fortifications, position of palaces & temples, water system, etc.). Arminden (talk) 12:53, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Proper merger

[edit]

Drmies, hi. Our friend Qalb alasid is in the process of merging the articles dealing with single structures, into a common one dealing with the entire Citadel Hill site. You have involved yourself already and have the most experience here, so please do help us out.

  • How does one properly merge 2 articles? Improvising leaves a lot of mess behind.
  • The talk-pages must also be merged.
  • The "What links here" items: is there a way of updating them automatically? I've spent hours yesterday trying to fix the mess left behind by the merger of the Roman temple into this art. We still have the mess from the Umayyad palace merger, with the Ayyubid tower yet to come.

I'm not good with technical aspects, and others even less than me, it seems. Improvising & doing things manually is a terrible idea, that much I've learned. THANKS! Arminden (talk) 13:17, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

PS: please don't just send links to Wiki explanation pages, usually they're plain Chinese to me, coders talking to each other. Arminden (talk) 13:24, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Aminden, I appreciate you, but I don't have the time or the energy to look into that now. It might be a good idea to post a "help" request to get an admin (another one) to look at it. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 17:20, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Another aspect: each separate item has its own apparatus of
  • infobox, including coordinates,
  • categories,
  • see also, and
  • external links.
The infobox can be placed at the start of the new section, but what about the rest?
Dear Qalb alasid, please, STOP until all this is sorted! We want to improve things, not to amplify the mess. You're relatively new here (1 year), it took me much longer to understand all the implications of various edits, I get that, but please, mergers and moves are tricky and must only be done with care. Thanks! Arminden (talk) 13:33, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Stop what? I haven't done anything my friend. Just take a deep breath, we're all here to work on it together and improve it. Qalb alasid (talk) 16:34, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
​Hi my friend, sorry, you're right.
Hi UnknownLifeform3. That was actually meant for you. Please stop! Mergers don't work like that. You're leaving behind all the talk-pages and all the unmodified "what links here" items. Do you know what I'm talking about? You're extremely new here and full of energy & good intentions, but improvised mergers create a huge amount of mess & need for manual fixing, which nobody likes to do.
Please go to the Teahouse, get good instructions, read up, and only then go on with merging anything. You can then decide if to self-revert the already merged bits and redo them "by the book" from scratch, or if you want to leave them as they are and do all the needed fixes 1 by 1 manually. I've updated one set of "what links here" items and had more than enough. Thank you. Arminden (talk) 16:32, 6 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Pichpich. I got a message saying that "The Wikipedia page Ayyubid Watchtower (Amman) has been changed on
6 May 2025 by Pichpich", but I cannot see any change there.
I also see from your page that you're offering your help to fellow editors. Maybe you know a bit more about Wiki procedures of fully merging pages (including talk-pages, "what links here" items and whatever other loose ends there might be). Do you? Thanks, Arminden (talk) 20:22, 6 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the what links here will automatically redirect since the parent page will redirect to the merged article. Qalb alasid (talk) 20:25, 6 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Wiki hates double redirects. I've been shouted at once for this reason and I took it to heart. Arminden (talk) 20:33, 6 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hi UnknownLifeform3. We're slowly getting somewhere. But we're not there yet.
I don't knkw how a "merger by the book" goes. You have presented yourself as particularly dedicated to this type of edit, so I was hoping to learn it from you. It's a matter of basic due dilligence. Again, what must be observed might be feasible through an automatic technical procedure I don't know about, or by hand, following a checklist. Here is the checklist, as far as I could figure it out:
  • Move article content
  • Adapt section headings
  • Adapt overlaps & repetitions (photos, text, coordinates etc.)
    • Decide about keeping infobox for merged section
    • Decide about what categories to keep
    • Decide about creating subsections within "Sea also", "External links", "Further reading" etc.
  • Move talk-page
    • Adapt thread headings (example: add "watchtower" at end or beginning)
  • Update "What links here" items to redirect to new URL (avoid chain with intermediate link).
The latter looks the most likely to be better done by using some template. I do it by hand if I must, but hate the repetitive, time-consuming work. You haven't done it for the watchtower (I haven't checked the other merged items). You find this scroll-down list on the page you've merged in. When editing in the phone mode, it's on the right side, at the 3 dots, the 1st item there. In this case it's at
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Ayyubid_Watchtower_(Amman).
You must go to those articles, find where "Ayyubid Watchtower (Amman)" occurs (sometimes hidden, so search in "edit full page" mode), and redirect each time directly to
#REDIRECT [[Amman Citadel#Ayyubid watchtower]]
I don't bother to do that for user pages and talk pages; if there's an automatic way (some merger template), it would do that too.
Don't forget to add an anchor at the target, otherwise your whole effort can be for nought if somebody changes that heading, even by adding a hyphen. So:
=={{anchor|Ayyubid watchtower}}Ayyubid watchtower==
And this for all merged items: tower, palace, temple, museum.
This all MUST be done, and I'm sure I've missed things. If you want to be a dedicated merging editor, improving rather than damaging Wiki, it's your duty to refine this even further. Good luck & lots of patience! Arminden (talk) 09:36, 10 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Arminden all double redirects are fixed automatically by bots within a few days, so unless it is a page with extreme traffic there is no reason to do it manually Unknown Lifeform | Talk 13:48, 10 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
also im a visual editor, any clue how to anchor headings in visual editor? Unknown Lifeform | Talk 14:16, 10 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of useful info

[edit]

Hi Makeandtoss. Why this massive removal of info? 90% of it is very useful to the common user. We can go through them 1 by 1. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 10:52, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A lede is a summary, and this lede is a summary about a hilltop, and not an overview of the complex history of the region. Best to stay straight to the point. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:54, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
OK, although maybe not for every item, but then why not place it back in in the body? There is so much confusion and lack of knowledge among the public! Arminden (talk) 10:59, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Btw, there is an intrinsic confusion here about the topic. There is a hill, and then there is a hilltop, and there there are successive historical strata - some corresponding to an entire walled ancient city, then to a classical acropolis of a much larger city, then to an Umayyad qasr, then to a (freestanding?) watchtower. The definition (lead) should better clarify this in broad terms, and the history and description sections should be even more precise. This is what I meant when I wrote that the article is a stub, because it lacks the most essential info (What, When, Who, Why), and that editing around the existing details is not what's needed until the basic info is brought in. Arminden (talk) 11:09, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It's not WP's job to spoon feed readers, at least not in the lede. Anyone who doesn't know what is meant with the Assyrian empire for example can click on the link and learn more about its historical context. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:21, 7 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Jordan Archaeological Museum- Proposed Merged

[edit]

It is of a similar length to the other pages we previously merged and is a building present on the citadel's grounds, it also already has a short section meaning that there is some agreement already that it fits, at least partially. Unknown Lifeform | Talk 13:28, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

UnknownLifeform3, please read my last posting further above (at "Proper merger") before doing any more mergers. Thanks. Arminden (talk) 09:38, 10 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Support the merge Qalb alasid (talk) 16:14, 11 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

W & S gates: from what period? BA, IA?

[edit]

The site plan doesn't indicate.

Quite possibly Ammonite. The whole Bronze Age and Iron Age history & archaeology are almost not mentioned, and those were the peak settlement periods, with city walls etc. Arminden (talk) 10:41, 10 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Cuts going way too far

[edit]

HI Qalb alasid. Thanks for adding the church material.

I'm not a bit though in favour of the cuts, nor of removing the images from within the sections. People want to see what they're reading about, that's the very concept of 'illustrations'. As to the information, it can be made more concise, but not that radically. If you find the sections too large, then that's an argument in favour of recreating spin-off articles for sections deemed too large. We can keep a concise Citadel Hill article, and have separate detailed articles on, say, the qasr. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 21:59, 11 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The issue with the images is that they are not within the section that they are referencing. there are too many. Either we reduce something and keep one photo per section and the rest go into a gallery. Can you tell me what you think was too radical in removal? Maybe we can figure out a way to make it more concise. Qalb alasid (talk) 01:42, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Ayyubid tower: unclear description

[edit]

"Blocks of cylindrical Roman columns were used on the southern façade."

Sticking out of the wall? Or as part of it and not sticking out initially, going through debesh and having the role to hold the 3 layers better together (masonry - debesh filling - masonry)?

"The fourth wall consists of steps leading to the roof."

A wall can hardly consist of steps.
Is it an open tower, with 3 walls? Such towers did exist as part of outer fortifications.
Or does it have 4 walls, with a staircase attached to (on the inside or the outside?), or built into the width of the back wall? Which of these options is it? Arminden (talk) 14:31, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Staircase built into the width of the back wall, clarified based on diagram. Arminden (talk) 14:35, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

After merger: where are the discussions from separate talk-pages?

[edit]

Gone? Not all topics were sorted out.

I'd like to see them merged too = moved over here, maybe structured (organised by topics, using headings & sub-headings).

Even the whole discussion about the merger itself was removed. I think there's value in keeping those pros & cons. Part of it was that, if the sections get too big, we should split off those parts, again. I'm not good in finding archived matters, but even archiving is better than simply erasing! There's even something dictatorial about it: I've won, now I'm removing even the traces of the heresy. Not in the Wiki spirit at all.

That's one big reason I hate mergers for: the mess, especially the loss of talk-pages, coupled with repetitions on article page (the latter one's easier to address). Arminden (talk) 02:23, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

the discussion about the merger is in the archives, the other ones dont seem to be, i think i forgot to move them over, i usually move them over and then archive them, as for the ones the others did i think they just wiped them Unknown Lifeform | Talk 04:28, 27 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I have just moved over all of the discussions lost in the merge and archived them Unknown Lifeform | Talk 04:34, 27 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you!
I admit, I'm not smart enough to find the archived stuff on my phone. The menu has no option for "archived pages", and that's that.
I want to check if there are any topics there still open/not solved, and move them over. The discussion cannot continue if the matter is shelved. Could you pls check on your phone how one can access the archive and inform me? Thank you in advance, Arminden (talk) 07:23, 27 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
On mobile open the menu from the 3 dots in the top right, then click archive, then select archive 1 Unknown Lifeform | Talk 20:10, 27 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]