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Talk:Bucha massacre

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“Context” section

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Per discussions of the page on the Hamas-Israel war, WP is obligated to include a “context” section which indicates the major historical and social factors which explain the atrocity discussed. It is imperative, following this precedent, that a dedicated section titled “Context of NATO expansion, legacy of WWII, and conditions in the Russian army,” in order to give the reader insight into the story and humanity of Bucha perpetrators. Surely they did not act in a vacuum, but were compelled to commit atrocities because of their impoverished and hopeless upbringing, coupled with the stratospheric losses in WWII and the history of Ukrainian collaboration in producing those losses, which made them angry at Ukrainian women and children, just as Hamas is angry at Israeli women, children, and infants. This section must be created immediately, with Russian scholars and politicians cited, in order to mirror the Israel-Hamas article. 32.221.36.119 (talk) 14:45, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reports say Russia systematically commits atrocity crimes.[1][2]  —Michael Z. 22:49, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The worst part of the request above is the blatant attempt at victim-blaming. In fact 7 million Ukrainians fought for the USSR in WWII, and several hundred thousand Russians collaborated with the Nazis.  —Michael Z. 23:04, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you’re going to get into nazi collaboration it should probably be noted that the overwhelming majority of Russian collaborators were recruited from POWs while most Ukrainian collaborators were free volunteers. This info is readily available on this website itself. 2603:7000:B900:36EA:1811:C5C0:75D:45F9 (talk) 13:00, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I’m not, but most Ukrainians who fought for a free Ukraine, whether in German foreign legions or the UPA, had already experienced life under both invading régimes and had a good idea of what Moscow rule represented for Ukraine, both historically and immediately. Bucha’s just a reminder that today’s Russian régime practices a variation of the same colonialism and genocide, while its propaganda makes direct reference to colonial themes from the Middle Ages, the imperial period, and the Second World War. There’s your context.  —Michael Z. 19:52, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you can find reliable sources that link the actions of the Russians in Bucha to a historical context, you are free to write such a section. Nicodene (talk) 20:06, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I thinkt that the comment by 32.221.36.119 was meant as a cynical remark on the Hamas-Israel war, not as a serious comment. A context section could nevertheless be useful. While the nature of the Russian war crimes pales in comparison to the barbarism of Hamas, they are systematic and cause a lot more victims. It is too early to tell, but Bucha seems to be kind of accidental, and indeed caused by a context, not by specific orders from higher up.
The context would then be something like: Russian state media continuously portraying Ukrainians as facsists; an army that is sent to war without mental preparation or even being told that it was at war; Panic when it faces unexpected resistance; The brutal culture inside the Russian army; General disrespect or even lack of knowledge of the rules of war; A feeling that one can act with impunity, etc. etc.Grieg2 (talk) 17:54, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All systematic, not “accidental.” Russian security and military forces were ordered to use torture and murder against “Nazis,” meaning self-identifying Ukrainians among the “Little Russians” in Ukraine. They were merely not told that that described practically everyone in the nation they were sent to destroy and turn into “Russia.” They didn’t "panic,” they just continued to follow orders. The same systematic atrocities were committed in Kharkiv oblast, right-bank Kherson oblast, and everywhere else under Russian occupation. Anyway, cite reliable sources instead of offering WP:OR analysis and apologism, per WP:NOTCHAT.  —Michael Z. 19:29, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, as I said, the Russian war crimes are systematic, i.e. all over Ukraine, but also in Syria etc. So it would be useful to create a context section. If there were general, but vague orders like "to use torture and murder against Nazis”, these would explain the events in Bucha. If you know about such orders, please add them to the page. They might point to a premeditated scheme of the Russian leadership to make the troops commit war crimes without giving them explicit orders. This is kind of smart if you do not want to end up in The Hague.Grieg2 (talk) 19:58, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Orders are rarely published, but there is a lot of evidence of systematic torture and murder cited in investigations and reports by Ukrainian law enforcement, independent organizations, experts, and the UN’s human-rights agencies: kill lists, consistent and pervasive establishment of Russian torture chambers, victims’ testimony, physical evidence from mass graves, consistent denial, refusal to investigate, and open announcements by Russia (like the open admission of the forcible deportation of hundreds of thousands of children), statements demonizing and dehumanizing Ukrainians and inciting genocide by Russia, &c. Indeed we should ensure they are included.  —Michael Z. 16:17, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
it is absurd to report the Bucha killings as proven while Russia still cannot obtain any evidence on the person's killed from Ukraine. It's a scam and Wikipedia is shaming it's reputation by accepting this unverified narrative as the truth. For a start, release the names if all the person's killed. 60.241.101.37 (talk) 05:07, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's like saying the Sydney funnel-web spider is a "scam." 2603:6080:21F0:6870:B84F:E37D:EA9E:31E5 (talk) 18:22, 26 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

How can this be considered proven though without an official list of victims? I don't understand this. Just a photo of a memorial with names on it is not enough info.

Gonzalo Lira

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Hi, I wanted to add the Bucha Massacre page that names such as Gonzalo Lira had indicated that the killings in Bucha resemble a false flag ops (He was later on jailed and eventually died/killed while in prison in Ukraine). I have provided a link, but the provided link is found unreliable by a user and reverted within seconds of my edit. Therefore I am instructed by him to consult here to get his permission for the edit (The link can be found in the edit history section). So here I am at your service...Ogün Eratalay message 09:08, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you need a reliable source, and it should be really reliable for this exceptional claim. See WP:FRINGE. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 09:13, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable source for what? That Gonzalo Lira claimed that the incident was a false flag operation? Or what? Since you are the expert of a reliable source, what do you think of Newsweek, is it reliable enough? (https://www.newsweek.com/who-gonzalo-lira-pro-putin-american-expat-dies-ukrainian-jail-1860496) Ogün Eratalay message 11:32, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
... and that his views are notable to include. See WP:NEWSWEEK. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:28, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest it is reliable enough as Newsweek's claim of Gonzo Lira has some context by NBC https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/russian-propaganda-efforts-aided-kremlin-content-creators-research-fin-rcna32343 BarakHussan (talk) 21:12, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is already a section for this - see #Russian response and denial
and #Social media comments
. I don't see this particular propaganda episode as notable enough. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:24, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What you would need is a reliable source covering the Bucha massacre that mentions this 'Gonzalo Lira' in connection with it. Nicodene (talk) 20:29, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proof of the massacre being premeditated

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German intelligence showed recordings of russian soldiers talking about the massacre being premeditated. This might be interesting and important to add:

https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/possible-evidence-of-russian-atrocities-german-intelligence-intercepts-radio-traffic-discussing-the-murder-of-civilians-in-bucha-a-0a191c96-634f-4d07-8c5c-c4a772315b0d

https://www.bayradio.fm/2022/04/08/german-espionage-shows-with-recordings-that-the-bucha-massacre-was-premeditated/

https://english.alarabiya.net/News/world/2022/04/07/German-intelligence-service-has-radio-intercepts-on-Bucha-killings-Report

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/7/germany-intercepts-russians-talk-of-bucha-killings

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61028380

https://www.dailysabah.com/world/europe/germany-intercepted-russian-calls-about-bucha-killings-report

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/2590563/germany-intercepted-audio-of-russian-soldiers-discussing-bucha-killings-report/ Potestade (talk) 20:36, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There appear to be doubts as to the localization of the audio. In the article by Der Spiegel (which, incidentally, all the other articles point to) it is noted that ‘further research has revealed that the communications can only be geographically assigned to the region north of Kyiv, even if they show clear parallels to the killings in Bucha’.
Accordingly, I believe the appropriate place for this information is War crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine#Kyiv and Chernihiv oblasts.
Nicodene (talk) 23:12, 12 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thumbnail change

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Thumbnail shows three dead bodies. Please change to avoid censorship during sharing 69.66.160.206 (talk) 15:25, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

White ties and armbands

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Any explanation how all the killed we wearing a white armbands aka pro-Russian insignia? Need to be added. 77.40.78.177 (talk) 16:10, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That is a lie, not everyone killed had white armband.
Bucha was occupied for some time, initially russians "filtered" civilians and forced ones that were left alive to wear white armbands. They needed to have a civilian shield.
Once russians got an order to retreat and "clean up", they've started executions.
White armbands are on people, who were rounded up, bound and executed at the end. There is a CCTV video of russians leading a line of bound people with white armbands to execution, right before retreat. 87.228.150.42 (talk) 06:39, 29 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As goes for the entirety of this page there is no concrete evidence supporting Russia Forces executed any of the civilians. No one is denying civilians were killed.
It also should be well known that some Ukrainians want unification with Russia. Those civilians would have wanted to identify themselves, with white arm bands presumably. Being charitable to the Ukrainian forces, upon their return they could have mistaken the civilian with the white arm band as a Russian soldier and shot him.
That is a far more rational conclusion than the contrary. However rationality isn’t acceptable in this debate. And it is a debate because there is quite literally zero evidence that Russian forces executed anyone.
It has effectively been “established” as fact that Russia executed civilians. So unfortunately you must falsify the unfalsifiable. You cannot prove Russia did not execute Civilians. You also can’t prove Ukraine shot the pro Russian unification civilians upon return. It’s a shame Wikipedia is completely untrustworthy when it comes to geopolitical issues. 2001:569:5142:D200:983B:7BD9:3976:1CB (talk) 09:29, 16 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]