Talk:Coffee

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Coffee article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the subject of the article.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives (index): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6Auto-archiving period: 2 months

Coffee was one of the Sports and recreation good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones Date Process Result October 29, 2005 Featured article candidate Not promoted May 16, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted September 24, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed August 3, 2007 Good article nominee Listed August 9, 2007 Peer review Reviewed October 23, 2007 Featured article candidate Not promoted March 15, 2008 Good article reassessment Kept June 9, 2010 Good article reassessment Delisted This article was on the Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive for the week of August 3, 2007. Current status: Delisted good article

This  level-3 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Food and drink: Beverages / Breakfast Top‑importance Food portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Food and drink, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of food and drink related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Related taskforces: /  This article is within the scope of the Beverages Task Force, a task force which is currently considered to be inactive. This article is within the scope of the Breakfast task force, a project which is currently considered to be inactive. Food and Drink task list: edit history watch purge To edit this page, select here Here are some tasks you can do for WikiProject Food and drink: Help bring these Top Importance articles currently B Status or below up to GA status: Agaricus bisporus (i.e. mushroom), Beef, Bread, Curry, Drink, Food, Ham and eggs, Soy sauce, Sushi, Yogurt Bring these Top Importance articles currently at GA status up to FA status: Beer, French cuisine, Sugar Bring these High Importance articles currently at GA status up to FA status: Apple, Burger King, Fish Participate in project-related deletion discussions. Delete unrelated trivia sections found in articles. Please review WP:Trivia and WP:Handling trivia to learn how to do this. Add the {{WikiProject Food and drink}} project banner to food and drink related articles and content to help bring them to the attention of members. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects, select here. Provide photographs and images for Category:Wikipedia requested images of food Consider joining this project's Assessment task force. List any project ideas in this section Note: These lists are transcluded from the project's tasks pages. Agriculture Mid‑importance Agriculture portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Agriculture, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of agriculture on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Yemen Mid‑importance Yemen portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Yemen, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Yemen on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Plants High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Plants, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of plants and botany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Guild of Copy Editors This article was copy edited by Galena11, a member of the Guild of Copy Editors, on 18 October 2007. Previous copyedits: /  This article was copy edited by Dvandersluis on 12 April 2007.

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Coffee was copied or moved into Health effects of coffee with this edit on 06:33, 1 September 2022. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (center, color, defense, realize, traveled) and some terms may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

The content of Health effects of coffee was merged into Coffee on 19 October 2013. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. For the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

Wiki Education assignment: Environmental Politics

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2025 and 17 December 2025. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Starfish3112 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Zenobbee (talk) 20:41, 15 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Ongoing dispute

@Socialwave597 and CoffeeKings: it would be very helpful if you could discuss the dispute you're having instead of edit warring. Especially for the rest of us page watchers. Guettarda (talk) 21:29, 18 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@CoffeeKings Can you please explain why you decided to remove all my edits on this page? Socialwave597 (talk) 05:54, 19 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Socialwave597, the Kaldi story is sourced, but scholars treat it as legend and its earliest written attestation dates to 1671. Coffee use and transmission are documented earlier, in 15th–16th century sources, so under Wikipedia chronology it should follow the historically attested material. Per WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV, myth or legendary material should not precede the historical summary, doing so reduces coverall article quality imho. Also, could you explain your other edits [1]? --CoffeeKings (talk) 19:30, 19 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV actually never says that, it says nothing about how Wikipedia paragraphs should be ordered. Where does it say anything about Wikipedia chronology? And what is the problem with my other edits? Socialwave597 (talk) 15:59, 21 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Socialwave597, WP:UNDUE, Undue weight can be given by the structure of the article, the amount of space given, or the placement of material. so the 15th–16th century evidence for coffee use should precede a legend or myth first attested in the 17th century. You also removed cited content, which I will be restoring.

As a compromise, the Kaldi story can be included as a clearly labeled 17th-century attested legend placed after the historically documented material.--CoffeeKings (talk) 02:28, 4 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Also, to be clear, the material I restored was fully sourced. This included the statement that the Christian Ethiopian Empire avoided coffee until the late 19th century. Please avoid removing cited content without prior discussion on the talk page, as that risks unnecessary edit warring. --CoffeeKings (talk) 02:51, 4 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

That was not removed? It was put into the "Prohibition and condemnation" tab, where it should be included. And where does WP:STRUCTURE say anything about the "amount of space given, or the placement of material"? Socialwave597 (talk) 05:36, 4 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

The source does not say that the Christian Ethiopian Empire avoided coffee, but that Ethiopian Christians avoided it until the 19th century. WP:SYNTH, it absolutely belongs in the #Prohibition and condemnation section. Socialwave597 (talk) 21:52, 8 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Socialwave597, please avoid edit warring. My concern is overall article quality. Material that is academically supported and historically attested should not be minimized or pushed downward, while legendary accounts are given greater prominence earlier in the article. The prohibition of coffee should be part of the historical discussion, not separated in a way that obscures context. As discussed above, placement and framing can mislead readers, especially when myths and legends are presented before factually verified history. I’m happy to continue discussing structure and placement here to reach consensus. Perhaps a subsection on prohibition within the history section, with myths and legends placed below the academically supported historical narrative. Do you agree that the current structure may mislead readers? --CoffeeKings (talk) 15:57, 9 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, my guess is that >99.9% of readers dont give a shit about this debate about historic precedent. We're here to read about coffee, and that info is nicely available now. Maybe there is a more productive way to contribute to this encyclopedia.--Smokefoot (talk) 16:42, 9 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Smokefoot, I get what you're saying, but accuracy and placement matter because leading with legend over documented history can mislead readers about what is historically attested versus folklore. --CoffeeKings (talk) 23:56, 9 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

How is the legendary accounts given greater prominence in the article when the text emphasizes that it is unreliable and section dedicated to it is relatively small? And coffee was prohibited in various religions, why is the mention of coffee being avoided by Ethiopian Christians mentioned in the historical section but not all the other religions listed in the #Prohibition and condemnation? How would you even merge the two together? I do not believe the current structure is misleading in any way, I believe perhaps a third opinion should be requested. Socialwave597 (talk) 03:30, 10 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Kaldi

Hi everyone, found out something interesting, thought I'd share.

In the earliest written account of the coffee herder story appears in Antoine Faustus Nairon, De saluberrima potione Cahue, seu Cafe nuncupata discursus (Rome, 1671). Nairon places the episode in Arabia Felix (Yemen), not Ethiopia. In the commonly used digitized edition, the relevant passage appears on PDF p. 18/69, where he states “in Ayaman Regione, quae est Arabia Felix.”[2]

Also some scholarly source describe him Arabian or Arab goatherder. Brill publications discussing coffee lore, following William H. Ukers, describe the figure as an “Arabian goatherd,” and Encyclopaedia Britannica has referred to Kaldi as “an Arab goatherd.” Academic works published by Springer also note variants in which the herder is described as Arabian. No idea how the Ethiopian one developed, but the first source and other academic sources mention Arabian goatherd. Thought I'd share it here too. --CoffeeKings (talk) 23:21, 9 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]