This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Novgorod Republic article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the subject of the article.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 12 months

This  level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Russia: History / Human geography Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the history of Russia task force. This article is supported by the human geography of Russia task force. Hanseatic League (defunct) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hanseatic League, a project which is currently considered to be defunct.Hanseatic LeagueWikipedia:WikiProject Hanseatic LeagueTemplate:WikiProject Hanseatic LeagueHanseatic League Former countries This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.Former countriesWikipedia:WikiProject Former countriesTemplate:WikiProject Former countriesformer country Middle Ages Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. European history Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject European history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the history of Europe on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European historyWikipedia:WikiProject European historyTemplate:WikiProject European historyEuropean history Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Anthropology: Oral tradition Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Anthropology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Anthropology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AnthropologyWikipedia:WikiProject AnthropologyTemplate:WikiProject AnthropologyAnthropology Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale. This article is supported by Oral tradition taskforce.

The article has too many anachronisims eg:-

"[it had a]more participatory government than much of the rest of Russia, and it chose its officials locally, it still was very much a part of the Russian political and cultural landscape"

This would be tricky as Russia as an entity or concept didn't exist at that point...

It is akin to talking about Stonehenge as being part of the English tradition of stone circles.

---

I don't know if the Stonehenge comparison is a very apt one. A better one might be to call the Anglo-Saxons, "English" even if they really weren't in the modern sense of the word. The people who built Stonehenge were not English ethnically or linguistically. The Novgorodians were from the polity known as Rus' and were "russkii" which we would translate as "Russian"(they were also sometimes referred to as "Slovenes" and perhaps a few other such ethnic terms). While Rus' and its culture is not exclusive to modern Russia, and the area and peoples became modern-day Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus, the not uncommon practice in the scholarship is to use the term "Russia" even to refer to Rus', the Appanage, or the Muscovite periods. Thus Janet Martin's book, Medieval Russia, not Medieval Rus'. The alternatives (such as "Rus'ian" a rather silly modern construction) or others are rather cumbersome or even more unsatisfactory. For the sake of simplicity, I have used "Russia" and "Russian" in spite of the shortcomings of those terms.--Mcpaul1998 06:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

--- One more of this kind: "... and from 1156, the archbishop of Novgorod, subject to approval by the Russian metropolitan.[b][8]" In 1156 it must have been Kyiv metropolitan, under Byzantine patriarchy in ancient Rus. "Russian" as a name didn't exist before early 1700x, when the tsar Peter I "re-branded" the tsardom (by that moment) of Moscovie. It didn't have much to do with the ancient Rus or its successors, apart from the name that it borrowed - both culture and habits were different and both peoples barely knew about each other (see prof. Timothy Snyder lectures on the history of Ukraine - where he reviews its neighbors too, Russia included). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.35.154.226 (talk) 00:23, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Likewise, any usage of "Russian" applied to anything before early 1700x, when the "Russian Empire" was declared, is an anachronism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.35.154.226 (talk) 00:28, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Russian is also the adjective for Rus', not just Russia. Also note that there are books like "Medieval Russia, 980-1584" so some historians use this term for pre-1700 period as well. Alaexis_¿question? 19:54, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Russian Church was de facto autocephalous beginning in 1448, so yes, we can refer to this as the Russian metropolitan. After all, the archbishop of Novgorod (along with other bishops) consented to the election of the metropolitan. Since the argument here is that "Russian" cannot be be used until 1700s, which is contrary to what the cited sources say, this will not convince anyone. Mellk (talk) 07:56, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, yes! Do you know the 11th century court document called "Russian Truth"? Are you familiar with the expressions in the ancient chronicles "Russian land" and "Russian people"? 85.140.15.12 (talk) 19:00, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

From http://www.genealogia.ru/ru/lib/catalog/rulers/3.htm . mikka (t)

Новгородская феодальная республика (Х в. - 1478).

Новгородская, Ленинградская, Архангельская, север Тверской обл., республики

Коми и Карелия.

Столица Новгород (Господин Великий Новгород).

1) Князья, назначаемые из Киева (ок. 970 - 1136).

1. Владимир Святославич Святой (970 - 78, 980, потом в Киеве).

2. Ярослав Владимирович (ок. 995 - 1019, потом в Киеве).

3. Вышеслав Владимирович (ок. 980 - 995).

4. Илья Ярославич (1019 - 21).

5. Брячислав Изяславич полоцкий (1021 - 36).

6. Владимир Ярославич (1036 - 52).

7. Изяслав Ярославич (1052 - 54, потом в Киеве).

8. Глеб Святославич тмутараканский (1054 - 78)*

9. Святополк Изяславич (1078 - 87, потом в Турове).

10. Мстислав Владимирович (1087 - 95, потом в Ростове)(1096 - 1113)(1114 - 16).

11. Давыд Святославич (1095 - 96, потом в Муроме).

12. Святослав Владимирович (1113 - 14).

13. Всеволод-Гавриил Мстиславич (1116 - 32)(1132 - 36).

2) Князья, избираемые новгородским вече (1136 - 1478).

14. Святослав Ольгович рыльский (1136 - 38, потом в Новгороде-Северском)(1139 - 41).

15. Ростислав Юрьевич суздальский (1138 - 39)(1141 - 42).

16. Всеволод Ольгович черниговский (1139).

17. Святополк Мстиславич полоцкий (1142 - 48).

18. Ярослав Изяславич киевский (1148 - 54).

19. Ростислав Мстиславич смоленский (1154).

20. Давыд Ростиславич смоленский (1154).

21. Мстислав Юрьевич суздальский (1154 - 57).

22. Святослав Ростиславич киевский (1157 - 60)(1161 - 68).

23. Мстислав Ростиславич суздальский (1160 - 61)(1175 - 76)(1177 - 78).

24. Роман Мстиславич волынский (1168 - 69).:

25. Рюрик Ростиславич киевский (1169 - 72).

26. Юрий Андреевич суздальский (1172 - 75).

27. Ярослав Мстиславич суздальский (1176 - 77).

28. Ярополк Ростиславич суздальский (1178).

29. Роман Ростиславич смоленский (1178 - 79).

30. Мстислав Ростиславич смоленский (1179 - 80).:

31. Владимир Святославич киевский (1180 - 81).

32. Ярослав Владимирович волынский (1181 - 82)(1187 - 96)(1197 - 99).

33. Мстислав Давыдович смоленский (1182 - 87).

34. Ярополк Ярославич черниговский (1196 - 97).

35. Святослав Всеволодович суздальский (1204 - 08).

36. Константин Всеволодович суздальский (1204 - 08).

37. Мстислав Мстиславич Удатный торопецкий (1210 - 14)(1216 - 17).

38. Ярослав Всеволодович переяславский (1214 - 16)(1225 - 28)(1230 - 36)*

39. Святослав Мстиславич смоленский (1217 - 19).

40. Всеволод Мстиславич смоленский (1219 - 21).

41. Всеволод Юрьевич суздальский (1221)(1223 - 24).

42. Ярослав Юрьевич суздальский (1221 - 23).

43. Михаил Всеволодович черниговский (1224 - 25)(1229)*

44. Федор Ярославич суздальский (форм. 1228 - 29).

45. Ростислав Михайлович черниговский (1229 - 30).

46. Александр Ярославич Невский переяславский (форм. 1228 - 29)(1236 - 40)

(1241 - 52).

47. Андрей Ярославич владимировский (1240 - 41).

48. Василий Александрович суздальский (1252 - 55)(1256 - 58).

49. Ярослав Ярославич тверской (1255 - 56)(1264 - 71).

50. Дмитрий Александрович суздальский (1258 - 64)(1271 - 73)(1275 - 81)(1283 - 94).

51. Василий Ярославич костромской (1273 - 76).

52. Андрей Александрович городецкий (1281 - 83)(1294 - 1304).

Борис Андреевич (наместник 1294 - 1304).

53. Михаил Ярославич тверской (1304 - 14)(1315 - 18).

54. Афанасий Данилович (1315).

55. Юрий Данилович московский (1318 - 22)*

56. Дмитрий Михайлович тверской (1322 - 25)*

57. Александр Михайлович тверской (1326 - 27)*

1328 - 1359 московские князья.

58. Дмитрий Константинович суздальский (1359 - 62).

1362 - 1478 московские князья.

3) Московские служилые князья-наместники (1403 - 78).

Юрий Святославич смоленский (1403 - 07)*

Семен-Лугвень Ольгердович литовский (1407 - 13).

Константин Дмитриевич (1413 - 25).

Юрий Семенович литовский (1432 - 40)(1446 - 47).

Иван Владимирович литовский (1444 - 46).

Александр Васильевич Чарторыйский (1447 - 55).

Василий Васильевич Шуйский-Гребенка (1455 - 71)(1472 - 78).

Михаил Олелькович (1471 - 72).

С 1478 московские воеводы.

1611 - 1617 шведская оккупация.

Карл-Филипп, сын Карла IХ шведского (форм. великий князь Новгорода 1611 - 17).

4) Посадники (ок. 950 - 1478).

Первоначально посадники избирались пожизненно, потом на два года.

С 1286 г. установлено коллективное посадничество представителей концов (районов)

Новгорода, из которых на год избирался степенной (главный) посадник.

Добрыня (киевский наместник ок. 980 - 990).

Воробей Стоянович (ок. 995).

Коснятин (Константин) Добрыньевич (ок. 1016 - 16/19).

Остромир (Иосиф)(ок. 1050 - 1054/58)

ок. 1058 - 1100 Завид, Петрята, Коснятин, Миронег, Савва, Улеб, Гюрята,

Микула (Никола).

Добрыня (ок. 1110 - 1117).

Дмитр Завидич (1117 - 18).

Коснятин Моисеевич (1118 - 19)(1125 - 26).

Борис (1120 - 25).

Мирослав Гюрятинич (1126 - 28)(1134 - 35).

Завид (Давид) Дмитрович (1128).

Данила (1129 - 31).

Петрила Микульчич (1131 - 32)*

Иванко Павлович (1132 - 34)*

Коснятин Микульчич (1135 - 36)(1146 - 47).

Якун Мирославич (1137 - 41)(1157 - 60)(1168 - 70).

Судила Иванкович (1141 - 44)(1147- 57).

Нежата Твердятич (1144 - 46)(1160 - 61).

Захария (1161 - 67)*

Якун Андреевич (1167 - 68).

Жирослав (1170 - 71)(1171 - 72)(1175).

Иванко Захарьинич (1171)(1172 - 75)(1184 - 86).

Завид Неревинич (1175 - 76)(1177 - 80).

Михалко Степанович (1176 - 77)(1180 - 84)(1186 - 89)(1204 - 05).:

Мирошка Нездинич (1189 - 1204).

Дмитр Мирошкинич (1205 - 07)*

Твердислав Михалкович (1207 - 11)(1213 - 15)(1216 - 19)(1219 - 20).

Дмитр Якунич (1211 - 12/13).

Юрий Иванкович (1215 - 16).

Семен Борисович (1219)*

Иванко Дмитрович (1220 - 29).

Внезд Водовик (1229 - 30).

Степан Твердиславич (1230 - 43).

Збыслав Якунович (1243 - 50).

Онания Феофилактович (ок. 1250 - 55).

Михалко Степанович (1255 - 58)*

Михаил Федорович (1258 - 68)*

Павша Онаньинич (1268 - 72)(1272 - 73).

Михаил Мишинич (1272)(1273 - 80).

Семен Михайлович (1280 - 86).

Андрей Климович (1286 - 91)(1294 - 95)(1295 - 97)(1299 - 1300)(1301 - 02)(1303 - 04)*

Юрий Мишинич (1291 - 92)(1297 - 98)(1304 - 05).

Семен Климович (1292 - 94)(1298 - 99)(1300 - 01)(1302 - 03)(1312 - 15)(1316 - 17).

Семен Иванович (1298/9 - 1300).

Михаил Павшинич (1310 - 12)*

Варфоломей Юрьевич (1323 - 24)(1331 - 32).

Данила (1327 - 28).

Федор Ахмыл (1329 - 30)(1332).

Захария Михайлович (1332).

Матвей Вафоломеевич Коска (1332 - 33)(1345 - 46).

Федор (Ахмыл ?) (1334 - 35).

Федор Данилович (1335 - 36)(1338 - 39)(1342 - 43)(1348 - 49)(1350).

Остафий Дворянинец (1340 - 41)(1344 - 45)(1347 - 48)*

Оницифор Лукич (1347/48)(1350 - 51)(1353 - 54).

Александр Дворянинцев (1346 - 47)(1354).

Федор Юрьевич (1349 - 50).

Ондреян Захарьинич (1359 - 60).

1360 - 70 неизвестные посадники.

Иван Семенович (1370 - 71).

Юрий Иванович (1371 - 72)(1373 - 74)(1374 - 75).

Михаил Данилович (1372 - 73).

Василий Иванович (1385).

Андреян Захарьинич (1390 - 91).

Есиф Захарьинич (1391 - 92).

Сильвестр Леонтьевич (1392 - 93).

Григорий Якунов (1393 - 94).

Федор Тимофеевич (1394 - 95).

Богдан Обакунович (1395 - 96).

Григорий Богданович (1396 - 97).

Тимофей Юрьевич (1397 - 98).

Александр Фоминич (1398 - 99).

Есиф Фалалеевич (1399 - 1400).

Юрий Дмитриевич (1400 - 01).

Иван Александрович (1401 - 02).

Фома Иванович (1402 - 03).

Кирилл Андреянович (1403 - 04).

Фома Есифович (1404 - 05).

Кирилл Дмитриевич (1405 - 06).

Иван Данилович (1406 - 07).

Андрей Иванович (1407 - 08).

Иван Богданович (1408 - 09).

Борис Васильевич (1415 - 16).

Семен Васильевич (1416 - 17).

Василий Есифович (1417 - 18).

Иван Богданович (1418 - 19).

Александр Игнатьевич (1419 - 20).

Василий Микитинич (1420 - 21).

Михаил Иванович (1421)(1424 - 25)

Тимофей Васильевич (1421 - 22).

Михаил Ананьич (1423 - 24).

1424 - 34 неизвестные посадники.

Самсон Иванович (1434).

Григорий Кириллович Посахно (1434 - 35)(1436).

Борис Юрьевич (1435 - 36)(1436).

Федор Данилович (1435).

Иван Васильевич (1436 - 37).

Федор Олисеевич (1437)(1441 - 42).

Дмитрий Васильевич (1437 - 38)(1450 - 51).

Иван Лукинич Щока (1438)(1455 - 56)(1456).

Исаак Андреевич Борецкий (1438 - 39)(1453 - 54).

Федор Яковлевич (1439).

Богдан Микитинич (1439 - 40).

Есиф Андреевич (1440).

Есиф Григорьевич Посахно (1440 - 41)(1447 - 48).

Есиф Яковлевич (1441).

Анания Семенович (1442).

Иван Максимович (1442 - 43).

Иван Лаврентьевич (1443)(1461).

Богдан Есифович (1443 - 44).

Захария Григорьевич (1444).

Василий Степанович (1444 - 45).

Михаил Иванович (1445).

Василий Сокира (1447).

Афанасий Остафьевич Груз (1448)(1461)(1466).

Дмитрий Васильевич Глухов (1450).

Иван Лукинич Щока (1455 - 56)(1456).

Михаил Иванович Туча (1456 - 57).

Алексей Васильевич Казимир (1459 - 60).

Василий Александрович (1460).

Иван Лаврентьевич (1461).

Яков Алексеевич Короб (1460 - 61).

Иван Немир (1461 - 62).

Василий Глазоемцев (1462).

Кузьма Григорьевич (1462 - 63).

Михайло Семенов (1463).

Александр Самсонов (1463 - 64).

Федор Самсонов (1464).

Афанасий Остафьевич (1466).

Дмитрий Исаакович Борецкий (1470 - 71)*

Тимофей Остафьевич (1471).

Марфа Борецкая (Посадница) (фактически 1470 - 78).

Василий Ананьич Голенище (1471)(1475).

Михаил Семенович (1474 - 75).

Фома Андреевич Курятник (1475 - 76)(1477 - 78).

Василий Александрович Казимир (1476 - 77)(факт. 1478).

Захар Овинов (1477)*

1478 присоединение к Московскому государству.

Propaganda POV seeped in massively. Muskovy is the seed of Russia, it came much later, and it's not the direct descentant state of the Kievan Rus', but a different princedom with a later start and different history. Arminden (talk) 18:08, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Mellk. I see your latest edits, including reverts, are pushing in the opposite direction. May I please know why? Arminden (talk) 21:08, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, this article is not about Kievan Rus, so I do not see what is the relevance of the above comments. Secondly, you did not suggest any improvements with those comments. Propaganda POV seeped in massively is not helpful. You have tried to make changes to the opening sentence now, but you did not refer to a specific source that supposedly supports your change. Let us check other sources, if the sources currently cited are not sufficient. The Encyclopedia of the Middle Ages has an entry for Novgorod where it states it was a "medieval Russian State extending from the gulf of Finland to the Urals".[1] The Oxford Dictionary of the Middle Ages says "Novgorod also controlled the Russian north" [2], and so on. Is this all propaganda to you? Mellk (talk) 21:24, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Also, please do not restore your change until there is consensus to do so. Thanks. Mellk (talk) 21:26, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No Kievan Rus IS Russian just like how its Belarusian and Ukrainian because all these three people originate in that historical state and no amount of fanatical Ukrainian ultranationalism will change tha no matter what 2A02:586:E81B:240:7D8F:3E6:BF99:4DDC (talk) 19:44, 25 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I see "anonymous" is cited a number of times, but I have no idea what this could be referring. Any clues? If not, I will try to find other sources. Mellk (talk) 06:21, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Plus, there were plenty of references that did not have page numbers and I could not find the correct page numbers for some of them. For example, Froyanov does not seem to use the terms "Novgorod boyar republic" or "Novgorod feudal republic" and instead used the term "Novgorod republic". Mellk (talk) 06:28, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Gorsky and a few other others like Paul have stated that the grand princes of Vladimir controlled the Novgorodian throne after Alexander Nevsky (until the end of independence) and that the Lithuanian princes were only invited and "fed" (under the system of kormlenie). There is ru:Список служилых литовских князей в Новгороде where they are listed as service princes. Is it fair to write this in wikivoice? Mellk (talk) 06:22, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]