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Talk:Scotland

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Former good articleScotland was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
April 14, 2006Good article nomineeListed
August 12, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
December 29, 2006Good article reassessmentKept
May 12, 2007Featured article candidateNot promoted
October 2, 2007Good article reassessmentKept
January 25, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
January 13, 2009Good article reassessmentKept
January 9, 2019Good article reassessmentDelisted
Current status: Delisted good article

Ethnicities

[edit]

The ethnicities section lists races. 185.85.155.174 (talk) 15:21, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The "Ethnic groups" section shows the "groups" that the "ethnicities" are under, and that's presumably done due to this section under demographics "62% of Scotland's population stated their national identity as 'Scottish only', 18% as 'Scottish and British', 8% as 'British only'". Large portions of Scotland Identify as both British and Scottish largely due to Unionism, you also can't even count those born outside Scotland as separate as that would include Scots simply born elsewhere. So unless you want to arbitrarily create as groups sections that has no bearing to Census definitions and there meaning, I think the link to "Demographics of Scotland" under the "Demographics" section will suffice. 2A02:C7E:5A64:2A00:F511:C259:C5FF:AEC (talk) 13:09, 21 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Languages

[edit]

@Mutt Lunker: I had believed it was mentioned in the body, evidently it is not, my apologies. The source is McLeod, Wilson (2024-02-05). "The Scottish Languages Bill: prospects for strengthening and challenges for implementation". Bella Caledonia. Archived from the original on 2025-03-22. Retrieved 2025-08-10.. May I re-add my edit? Coleisforeditor (talk) 19:01, 10 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, it would sit better in the body certainly, but without MOS:SCAREQUOTES please. Mutt Lunker (talk) 19:44, 10 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There isn't really a convenient place to note it without a new section, § Languages is the closest place but is about the languages themselves and nothing about their legal status.
Should we not also consider the fact that most readers start and end their research at the infobox? Wouldn't it be misleading to not at least have a note about it?
Also I should note that while I don't feel particularly strongly on the issue, I do not think quoting 'enforceable' reads as scare quoting, I feel it's reasonably obvious it's a direct quote. Still fine to remove it. Coleisforeditor (talk) 23:12, 10 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As there is no ref that uses the word, it isn't an apparent direct quote, no. My concern was more with "official languagues" being in quotes, as it appears to be taking a line on the meaningfulness of the designation but with "enforceable" there is no apparent purpose, so it's just confusing.
As the purpose of the infobox is to summarise the article, we shouldn't really have material there that is not in the main body. What is meant, in this case, by the languages being official may well be worth covering in Wikipedia as a whole (for instance Languages of Scotland or the articles for Scots and Gaelic) but if there isn't an evident place for elaborating the matter in this article, that's a clear indication that this is even less so for the infobox.
It may not have been the intention but the material that you added, particularly with the quotation marks, could be seen as saying that Scots and Gaelic have been designated as official languages, but, you know, they're not really. That may or may not be the case but, if noted in the infobox, it should be in reference to more in-depth, supported coverage of the matter elsewhere in the article.
What you said is an interpretation of the Bella Caledonia article, which says "this declaration has no concrete practical effect and is essentially (my emphasis) symbolic" but goes on to lay out in more detail the impact and consequences. Your wording could imply that this was actively the intent of the bill, or that it is widely acknowleged as being symbolic only. Again, that may be the case but such a bald statement in the infobox alone is not warranted. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:34, 11 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2025

[edit]

Change name of Secretary of State from ‘Ian Murray’ to ‘Douglas Alexander’ AlanBobs (talk) 22:38, 29 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Slomo666 (talk) 22:45, 29 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnicities changed despite advice not to

[edit]

The Ethnicities category now includes a subsection specifying "88.13% British/Irish" under the "White" category.

This is now the only page that has this within the UK Nations (I now see the same for the UK page so will copy/crosspost this over there too) . This is arbitrary, the UK census uses the previously listed categories across the UK Nations for ease of readability.

The UK census data operates "racially", it attempts to get people to pick ethnicities in order to classify them into 'racial' groups (while also gathering as much 'data' as possible).

To display it in this way is to conflate other European statistics with a different way of measuring. For example Norway defines a Norwegian (as opposed to a "non-Norwegian") as "Norwegians of two Norwegian parents, either born abroad or in Norway", notice there is no mention of "Race", there is an overlap with what some might call an "ethnically" Norwegian person but there is no correlation with race "Statistics Norway does not attempt to quantify or track data on ethnicity" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Norway#Ethnicity. Denmark also does something similar "There are no official statistics on ethnic groups, but according to 2020 figures from Statistics Denmark, 86.1% of the population in Denmark was of Danish descent (including Faroese and Greenlandic), defined as having at least one parent who was born in the Kingdom of Denmark and holds Danish nationality." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#Demographics .

Meanwhile, to conflate this with Scotland is to go against the Scottish governments own guidance "Due to the complex nature of ethnicity this question is much longer than other survey questions", "National identity is a self-defining concept in which a person expresses what country or countries, nation or nations, they feel most connected to and like ethnicity it involves a range of concepts" - https://www.gov.scot/publications/data-collection-publication-guidance-ethnic-group/pages/4/ . This means a person with a Polish surname could identify as Polish in the Scottish Census despite having two parents born in Scotland, however were they in Norway they would be classified as Norwegian.

There is also the problem of the "Irish" part of that "88.13% British/Irish", which although counting both was the correct option it gives the impression that "British" numbers are being 'bumped up' by Irish immigrants, it's important to note that despite me being Scottish I could be counted as "Irish" (ancestry) given how "Irish" the area I live is on the census (as most of the Irish category is Scots identifying as "Irish" due to Sectarianism, hence why it's higher in the West of Scotland).

Even the "Mixed" category has it own problems within the wider UK Census "Mixed or Multiple ethnic groups: "European Mixed, European unspecified, other European - 26,572", "Mixed or Multiple ethnic groups: English/Welsh/Scottish/Northern Irish/British - 11,880" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_(United_Kingdom_ethnicity_category)#Detailed_breakdown . It's a small amount but it shows you WHY the wider 'Racial' stats are used, this is people identifying as "Mixed Race" because they've conflated it with "Ethnicity". The same happens with Cornish 'despite no explicit "Cornish" option being available, approximately 34,000 people in Cornwall and 3,500 people elsewhere in the UK—a combined total equal to nearly 7 per cent of the population of Cornwall—identified themselves as ethnic Cornish by writing this in under the "other" ethnicity option' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornish_people#Classification , This means there aren't counted as "White" (even though I believe this specifically refers to "Other" under the "White" heading, there is sizeable about not identifying under "White" as they just see the heading "Other") as it's not under that category (you can see this is the case on from looking at the "Ethnic Groups" list itself, or you can check the census data for Cornwall and see and abnormally high the "Other "category is compared to it's racial groups: https://www.ons.gov.uk/census/maps/choropleth/identity/ethnic-group/ethnic-group-tb-6a/other-ethnic-group/ )

I would recommend that the "88.13% British/Irish" be removed it's only used on this page and goes against the Census's own advice on the topic. 2A02:C7E:5A64:2A00:C831:39CE:7C30:787 (talk) 11:45, 3 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia editors report the data from the reliable source i.e. the census in this case. The arguments you've put forward critical of the UK census and comparing it with those of Norway and Denmark belong in a criticism section of the 2021–2022 United Kingdom censuses article, if there's reliable sources backing them up. Absolute consistency across articles on the UK countries is not a requirement. If the figure had no supporting reliable source I would likely remove it, but I think this may need further discussion and consensus reached, as it's a point of view that other editors may disagree with. What may help support your case is the more neutral argument that the ethnicity figures in the infobox are not included in the main body of the article. Take a look at Help:Infobox which states they are not "statistics" tables in that they (generally) only summarize material from an article — the information should still be present in the main text. Rupples (talk) 14:46, 3 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I've reverted per WP:BRD until a consensus is reached. The infobox can't break down each category. That sort of detail is best kept to the body of the article. Dgp4004 (talk) 14:51, 3 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, fine. I couldn't find an edit summary with the change so thought the data had been included for some time. Have now rechecked and see the change was made yesterday. Rupples (talk) 15:07, 3 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the data is accurate (as far as I'm aware) to address your previous point to me, however my point was mainly that it's too niche a topic for the average person to understand and is therefore open to misinterpretation. 2A02:C7E:5A64:2A00:C831:39CE:7C30:787 (talk) 15:27, 3 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As a courtesy, I've notified and invited the editor who inserted the data, User:Reverend Mick man34, to this discussion. Rupples (talk) 16:32, 3 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This change (though now reverted) seems beneficial to the reader because:
(a) It gives an immediate clue that there are residents of Scotland whose ethnicity is white, but they are not British or Irish. Therefore a reader who quickly looks at the article for this information will realise they need to read the text to understand further. The current (reverted) form could easily allow the reader to take away the wrong information from the article.
(b) The data is that which the UK census has decided to collect and report. An article on a country can only provide this type of data in the form that is collected by the national authorities. Other countries will have made their own decisions for their own purposes, but Wikipedia, an encyclopaedia based on its sources, can only show what is in the sources relevant to the article.
(c) When the article states that the speaking of Polish at home is more common than for Gaelic, there seems every reason to have an info box that does not conceal the non-British white residents. ThoughtIdRetired TIR 20:32, 3 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, but to go over your points.
First off their race is White not their ethnicity (as the census in scotland breaks white into another 6 categories ), Second as stated in my original point you can’t conflate that “they are not British or Irish” (In they sense that they are foreigners) because unlike somewhere like Denmark who uses a legal criteria (one Danish parent) to determine that someone is not of ‘Foreign background’ Scotland allows people to determine their ‘identity’ as stated “a person expresses what country or countries, nation or nations, they feel most connected to”, so if someone concludes that scotland is 12% foreign residents then they will have came to the wrong conclusion “The non-British population of Scotland was 397,000 (7.4%) in the year to mid-2021. The non-UK born population was 523,000 (9.7%)” - https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/publications/population-by-country-of-birth-and-nationality-july-2020-to-june-2021/#:~:text=The%20non%2DBritish%20population%20of,compared%20to%20the%20previous%20year . This is nationality “non-British” and country of birth “non-UK born” but not ethnicity as “White: British” does not mean White holding British nationality, it means listing your only country of origin as Britain.
So it’s not “concealing” anything to point out that to use this metric is conflating data wrongly, and goes against the purpose of using the census data as it was intended to identify broad racial groups.
There are 18 possible Ethnic options to chose in the Census, which is why they are all sorted under race, for ease of understanding. 2A02:C7E:5A64:2A00:3D32:A0B8:D92F:5FBB (talk) 23:19, 3 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Commas

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@Rhain, isn’t it very good that you seemingly have dipped into my edit history and started reverting some of my edits in relation to the removal of unnecessary American-style commas? You even added this page to your watch-list (clearly anticipating and perhaps desiring a dispute), asserting your own preferences on an article you had no history with and despite the fact that several months ago at Grand Theft Auto VI you made it clear you were not even aware that "US" is preferred in British English over "U.S." You aren’t aware of the basics of British English, and your understanding of English appears to be thoroughly Americanised, so why do you make edits on the matter? "On Saturday morning I went for a walk round my favourite park," for example, is a perfectly ordinary British English sentence. It’s not incorrect and we don’t need a comma after "morning", and such a comma would not make the sentence any clearer. We don’t need a comma after the brief adverbial phrase "In 1603" either. Keeper of Albion (talk) 14:11, 8 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This article is not on my watchlist; you reverted my edit, which pings me automatically. You attempted a similar edit in August, which was reverted, and you were asked to start a discussion; you did not, and instead made a similar edit in October. The changes you've made—which you've admitted are a matter of preference—are not dictated or supported by the MoS; it's fine that you write that way, and nobody is claiming that it is incorrect or extraordinary, but consensus ought to be sought before continuing to force it into articles when faced with reversions.
I'm not sure where you got the idea about my understanding of "US" vs "U.S." (another difference not strictly enforced) or why it is still bothering you—I suspect, perhaps, because I happened to revert this change of yours several months ago amidst your dozens of other alterations—but it is neither relevant nor correct. To clarify, British and Australian English are my primary varieties. Rhain (he/him) 14:50, 8 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relative population map

[edit]
Map
About OpenStreetMaps
Maps: terms of use
130km
81miles
32
32 Shetland (population 23,210 in 2012) wikidata:Q47134
32 Shetland (population 23,210 in 2012) wikidata:Q47134
31
31 West Lothian (population 182,140 in 2018) wikidata:Q204940
31 West Lothian (population 182,140 in 2018) wikidata:Q204940
30
30 West Dunbartonshire (population 88,930 in 2019) wikidata:Q208121
30 West Dunbartonshire (population 88,930 in 2019) wikidata:Q208121
29
29 Stirling (council area) (population 94,210 in 2019) wikidata:Q217838
29 Stirling (council area) (population 94,210 in 2019) wikidata:Q217838
28
28 South Lanarkshire (population 319,020 in 2018) wikidata:Q209142
28 South Lanarkshire (population 319,020 in 2018) wikidata:Q209142
27
27 Scottish Borders (population 115,510 in 2019) wikidata:Q211113
27 Scottish Borders (population 115,510 in 2019) wikidata:Q211113
26
26 South Ayrshire (population 112,610 in 2019) wikidata:Q209131
26 South Ayrshire (population 112,610 in 2019) wikidata:Q209131
25
25 Renfrewshire (population 179,100 in 2019) wikidata:Q211091
25 Renfrewshire (population 179,100 in 2019) wikidata:Q211091
24
24 Perth and Kinross (population 151,950 in 2019) wikidata:Q207679
24 Perth and Kinross (population 151,950 in 2019) wikidata:Q207679
23
23 North Lanarkshire (population 340,180 in 2018) wikidata:Q207111
23 North Lanarkshire (population 340,180 in 2018) wikidata:Q207111
22
22 North Ayrshire (population 134,740 in 2019) wikidata:Q206926
22 North Ayrshire (population 134,740 in 2019) wikidata:Q206926
21
21 Moray (population 95,820 in 2019) wikidata:Q211106
21 Moray (population 95,820 in 2019) wikidata:Q211106
20
20 Midlothian (population 92,460 in 2019) wikidata:Q206934
20 Midlothian (population 92,460 in 2019) wikidata:Q206934
19
19 Inverclyde (population 77,800 in 2019) wikidata:Q208271
19 Inverclyde (population 77,800 in 2019) wikidata:Q208271
18
18 Highland (council area) (population 235,540 in 2018) wikidata:Q208279
18 Highland (council area) (population 235,540 in 2018) wikidata:Q208279
17
17 Glasgow City (population 633,120 in 2019) wikidata:Q55934339
17 Glasgow City (population 633,120 in 2019) wikidata:Q55934339
16
16 Fife (population 373,550 in 2019) wikidata:Q201149
16 Fife (population 373,550 in 2019) wikidata:Q201149
15
15 Falkirk (council area) (population 160,340 in 2018) wikidata:Q216802
15 Falkirk (council area) (population 160,340 in 2018) wikidata:Q216802
14
14 East Renfrewshire (population 95,530 in 2019) wikidata:Q211925
14 East Renfrewshire (population 95,530 in 2019) wikidata:Q211925
13
13 Outer Hebrides (population 26,720 in 2019) wikidata:Q80967
13 Outer Hebrides (population 26,720 in 2019) wikidata:Q80967
12
12 East Lothian (population 107,090 in 2019) wikidata:Q207257
12 East Lothian (population 107,090 in 2019) wikidata:Q207257
11
11 East Dunbartonshire (population 108,640 in 2019) wikidata:Q211889
11 East Dunbartonshire (population 108,640 in 2019) wikidata:Q211889
10
10 City of Edinburgh (population 524,930 in 2019) wikidata:Q2379199
10 City of Edinburgh (population 524,930 in 2019) wikidata:Q2379199
9
9 East Ayrshire (population 122,010 in 2019) wikidata:Q209135
9 East Ayrshire (population 122,010 in 2019) wikidata:Q209135
8
8 Dundee City (population 149,320 in 2019) wikidata:Q2357511
8 Dundee City (population 149,320 in 2019) wikidata:Q2357511
7
7 Dumfries and Galloway (population 148,860 in 2019) wikidata:Q126514
7 Dumfries and Galloway (population 148,860 in 2019) wikidata:Q126514
6
6 Clackmannanshire (population 51,540 in 2019) wikidata:Q207268
6 Clackmannanshire (population 51,540 in 2019) wikidata:Q207268
5
5 Angus, Scotland (population 115,820 in 2020) wikidata:Q202177
5 Angus, Scotland (population 115,820 in 2020) wikidata:Q202177
4
4 Argyll and Bute (population 85,870 in 2019) wikidata:Q202174
4 Argyll and Bute (population 85,870 in 2019) wikidata:Q202174
3
3 Aberdeen City (population 227,560 in 2018) wikidata:Q62274582
3 Aberdeen City (population 227,560 in 2018) wikidata:Q62274582
2
2 Aberdeenshire (population 261,210 in 2019) wikidata:Q189912
2 Aberdeenshire (population 261,210 in 2019) wikidata:Q189912
1
1 Orkney (population 22,270 in 2019) wikidata:Q100166
1 Orkney (population 22,270 in 2019) wikidata:Q100166
Relative population map.
Total Scotland population (wikidata:Q22) = 5,404,700 (2016)
[Hide/show council populations]
1
Orkney (population 22,270 in 2019)
wikidata:Q100166
2
Aberdeenshire (population 261,210 in 2019)
wikidata:Q189912
3
Aberdeen City (population 227,560 in 2018)
wikidata:Q62274582
4
Argyll and Bute (population 85,870 in 2019)
wikidata:Q202174
5
Angus, Scotland (population 115,820 in 2020)
wikidata:Q202177
6
Clackmannanshire (population 51,540 in 2019)
wikidata:Q207268
7
Dumfries and Galloway (population 148,860 in 2019)
wikidata:Q126514
8
Dundee City (population 149,320 in 2019)
wikidata:Q2357511
9
East Ayrshire (population 122,010 in 2019)
wikidata:Q209135
10
City of Edinburgh (population 524,930 in 2019)
wikidata:Q2379199
11
East Dunbartonshire (population 108,640 in 2019)
wikidata:Q211889
12
East Lothian (population 107,090 in 2019)
wikidata:Q207257
13
Outer Hebrides (population 26,720 in 2019)
wikidata:Q80967
14
East Renfrewshire (population 95,530 in 2019)
wikidata:Q211925
15
Falkirk (council area) (population 160,340 in 2018)
wikidata:Q216802
16
Fife (population 373,550 in 2019)
wikidata:Q201149
17
Glasgow City (population 633,120 in 2019)
wikidata:Q55934339
18
Highland (council area) (population 235,540 in 2018)
wikidata:Q208279
19
Inverclyde (population 77,800 in 2019)
wikidata:Q208271
20
Midlothian (population 92,460 in 2019)
wikidata:Q206934
21
Moray (population 95,820 in 2019)
wikidata:Q211106
22
North Ayrshire (population 134,740 in 2019)
wikidata:Q206926
23
North Lanarkshire (population 340,180 in 2018)
wikidata:Q207111
24
Perth and Kinross (population 151,950 in 2019)
wikidata:Q207679
25
Renfrewshire (population 179,100 in 2019)
wikidata:Q211091
26
South Ayrshire (population 112,610 in 2019)
wikidata:Q209131
27
Scottish Borders (population 115,510 in 2019)
wikidata:Q211113
28
South Lanarkshire (population 319,020 in 2018)
wikidata:Q209142
29
Stirling (council area) (population 94,210 in 2019)
wikidata:Q217838
30
West Dunbartonshire (population 88,930 in 2019)
wikidata:Q208121
31
West Lothian (population 182,140 in 2018)
wikidata:Q204940
32
Shetland (population 23,210 in 2012)
wikidata:Q47134

There seems to be a problem with the map added in these recent edits, in regard to the "Hide/show council population" function. Clicking on it produces no result for me (I've tried Chrome and Bing incidentally) though I somehow, once, got it displaying that a table was there (not sure how but I think it may have been from clicking on "full screen" at the top right, then using the back arrow to the article, but I can't replicate this). From this glimpse of the table, I ascertained that the numbers appear to solely relate to this key, were it visible, and the order, if significant was not clear (not, e.g. relative population, order of size, alphabetic).

Viewed in the context of the article, almost all the numbers in the map are superimposed upon each other, so illegible and can't be accessed functionally. If the map is expanded to full screen and zoomed into, the numbers can be seen but I can see no key so they have no evident purpose in this view. Hovering over an individual number gives the council name and population figure.

There is no number over Aberdeenshire council but, on investigation, it is hidden behind the number at adjacent Aberdeen council.

The title of the diagram is given "relative population" map, which led me to think the numbers somehow indicated relations in size, like another aspect complementing the existing cartogram, but there appears to be no relative aspect to it. Should it maybe be just "council area populations" or the like? Depending on puropse and without these problems, the map may be a useful addition but this is not yet clear to me. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:01, 11 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with the above.... simply an accessibility nightmare. This might be useful on the demographics page if it was centralized and large enough. Wonder if we should have a wider talk on these due to accessibility concerns and how they should be displayed and when they should be and not be used in small versions. That all said I've always been weary about links that bring readers outside of English Wikipedia without warning.Moxy🍁 17:30, 11 January 2026 (UTC)[reply]