DZ
DefZone.Net

Kien thuc cong nghe & giai tri

Wiki Article

Talk:Greater London

Nguồn dữ liệu từ Wikipedia, hiển thị bởi DefZone.Net

Xem trên WikipediaBài ngẫu nhiên khác

Greater London = County of New York

[edit]

Using different names for different things should be better. However, even if the regional authority has (unhappily) the same name of the different ceremonial county, there is a parallelism between the situation of London and New York, and Wikipedia should reflect this fact. The pages about London and New York are (correctly) on the same level. So this page about Greater London should be managed as the page about the County of New York, which both are one of the metropolitan counties. There is no need to duplicate the informations: the Greater London should advice that “Greater London” can refer to the regional authority, but a disambiguation with the London page (which contains the informations about the authority) should be sufficient.--11piemontesibellitosti (talk) 13:05, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article uses the names used in the sources, which you tacitly admit. All taxonomies leak, and trying to treat the UK's capital city in exactly the same way as an American city is not going to plug any holes. The page is perfectly clear that the ceremonial county excludes the city of London. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:49, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So have I got this right:
Greater London = the ceremonial county.
The City of London = the ceremonial county.
London = both ceremonial counties.
Is that the only difference? Is the lord lieutenancy really so important that it needs several thousand words? Surely one page for the square mile and one for Greater London would suffice? Three separate articles seems a tad excessive.
The ONS doesn't even record statistics for ceremonial counties anymore. Dgp4004 (talk) 23:16, 25 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
London and Greater London are pretty much the same thing. There is the ceremonial county of Greater London that excludes the City of London, but the overwhelming majority of the time Greater London refers to the administrative area that includes the City. Like in Greater London Authority. But more frequently, it is just called London, like in Mayor of London or London Fire Brigade. There is no other alternative definition of London. But there are two definitions of Greater London, which causes endless confusion. This article should either be merged with London, or just cover the ceremonial county that excludes the City. Currently it is mostly a duplicate of the article London. I suggested to merge the articles before, but there was no consensus for that. But something must be done, the current intro makes no sense. Vpab15 (talk) 08:57, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Duplication is unwelcome and can be reduced by better targeting the information, but there is less duplication with London than you seem to imply, and there is an important difference in that the London article is talking about the historical and current capital city, whereas Greater London refers to the county (and some). As you say, no end of confusion arises with a confusion between administrative and ceremonial counties, made worse by the fact that Greater London is not technically an administrative county at all, so when referred to administratively it is an arrangement that is exceptional in the UK. This article should explain to the reader what Greater London is, and how it is not exactly the same thing as London. I think it largely does that. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:02, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's as though Ronaldo had his foot amputated and we made three articles. Ronaldo (whole), Ronaldo (foot) and Ronaldo (remainder). All with the same information. And we go round and round in circles with some saying there should be one Ronaldo article and others saying that the foot is technically not part of Ronaldo and the article is actually quite different. Dgp4004 (talk) 11:43, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How do the boundaries of 'London' and 'Greater London' differ? Where does London stop and Greater London go on? What's the population of London as opposed to Greater London? Who governs London and who governs Greater London? The article says there are two ceremonial counties on Greater London. How many ceremonial counties are there in London? The Greater London article says there are two police forces in Greater London. How many police forces are there in London?

Either London and Greater London are indeed the same place. Or else both articles are a total mess. And they're a mess because nobody can tell the difference. Because there isn't one. Dgp4004 (talk) 12:09, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Vpab15 and Dgp4004: you're right, I fail to see what this article is about, especially given that it's trying to summarise both senses of "Greater London" at the same time. Far better to just either redirect it straight to London, and briefly discuss any nuance about the GL name there, or else change to a dab page giving the various options. The current status quo is not sustainable and confuses readers.  — Amakuru (talk) 20:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Amakuru Even if quite obscure, I can see some merit to having an article for the ceremonial county of Greater London. That was the basis of the move request I started below. However, there was no consensus for that. Maybe a new move request can be started, since it has been almost a year since the last one? Vpab15 (talk) 09:17, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where does London stop and Greater London go on 1965. Although not exactly 1965, because London did not stop then. You are comparing apples with pears. Are you aware that all the London boroughs also are split this way too? See for instance, London Borough of Croydon and Croydon. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:41, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ah I think I see now, thank you. Dgp4004 (talk) 13:18, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Greater London and the Region

[edit]

I'd like to suggest a change to the introduction of the article as it is quite misleading. The London Region is a region of England that consists of two ceremonial counties - Greater London and the City of London. Greater London (without the City of London) is what we refer to as the capital of England and it is not coterminous with the region which also covers the City of London.

What I have bolded are three different entities on different levels of local government that should not be confused with each other.

I get that calling the City of London a borough (part of Greater London) is for ease of understanding, but it is nonetheless misleading. Felleno (talk) 15:38, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As the London Government Act 1963 says, "The area comprising the areas of the London boroughs, the City and the Temples shall constitute an administrative area to be known as Greater London."[1] This area has far greater administrative significance than the ceremonial county, let alone general awareness. Perhaps you refer to Greater London as the capital of England and mean an area which excludes the City of London, but I don't know why you would say that "we" do that in describing London as the capital. NebY (talk) 16:15, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Greater London and the City of London are two different ceremonial counties. I am saying that because the page for the ceremonial counties of England says so as well.
However I agree that Greater London also has the rights of a devolved government (that of Scotland or Wales) because it is classified as such.
Though e.g. on the page London, which is supposed to be for the capital city of the UK, there is a Wikimedia map which clearly shows Greater London with the City of London missing.
My original issue was that the London Region is not coterminous with the area known as Greater London because according to many pages everywhere on Wikipedia: Greater London is one of the two counties within the London Region, the other being the City of London, which is (most likely) not part of Greater London.
I believe that the London Government Act that you provided is about another entity - the Greater London Council (now referred to as the London Authority), which governs Greater London directly and the City of London's government is subordinated to it. On a map though, Greater London is usually shown as an entity that does not cover the City of London, unless the map is referring to the entire authority.
The act could mean that the government of Greater London is the same as the government of the entire region which also covers the City of London. The City of London also has ceremonial county and city status though. Felleno (talk) 09:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there are two ceremonial counties and maps of ceremonial counties will show that. Why should we treat that definition as the most significant meaning of "Greater London", over and above that used in the various Acts concerning the government and administration of London and in the name and scope of the Greater London Authority, which has a direct impact on the lives of Londoners far beyond the occasional ceremonial? Rather, our lead and the body of the article clearly and correctly describe both usages. NebY (talk) 12:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is understandable. Thank you for your replies. Felleno (talk) 12:32, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox images

[edit]

I've just reverted the lead to its three-image form. This is the same as that used for the ceremonial counties, e.g. Buckinghamshire, and it seems appropriate to treat London similarly. However, as the infobox has previously been reduced to one image it seems sensible to open a discussion. A.D.Hope (talk) 19:01, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm with you. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 19:48, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unrelated infobox image

[edit]

image1 of the main infobox is File:City of London, seen from Tower Bridge.jpg, which would be useful if this was London. However, this is not London, it is Greater London, which is different. The image shown is of the City of London, which is the only part of London not in Greater London. It should be removed and replaced with something more fitting, perhaps something of Westminster? Coleisforeditor (talk) 20:02, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

According to the article, the City of London is part of Greater London. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 21:53, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That very much depends on the context of the usage of "Greater London". This article covers both the Greater London county, which the City of London is not a part of, the London region, which the City of London is a part of, but regions are only statistical areas, and the GLA. The GLA does hold some powers over the City, mostly in the context of transport, which is most likely what it's referring to, but most powers are held by the City itself, as it is a county. Overall: The City of London only rarely appears in the various definitions of "Greater London", most of the appearances it does make have barely any legal weight and overall it is not consistently in Greater London enough for image1 Coleisforeditor (talk) 22:13, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
London and Greater London are pretty much the same thing. And in both cases the City of London is included. The ceremonial county of Greater London doesn't include the City as you mention, but 99.9% of the time Greater London refers to the administrative area that includes the City. You say most powers are held by the City itself, as it is a county. It is a "ceremonial" county, and as such, that status confers it exactly zero powers. The City does hold some special powers and its own police force, but that is because of its special status and has nothing to do with its ceremonial county status. PS the website of the City has some useful info [2] Vpab15 (talk) 22:27, 4 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Images

[edit]

User:A.D.Hope. Hi. Oops I wasn't aware of the 3 images rules. I propose to replace one image with a view of Canary Wharf from Greenwich which covers a huge part, and another with anything I.e. Harrods, Knightsbridge, Trafalgar Square, or anything. Caberouii (talk)

The current version looks hideous, the image of Harrods is far too large and dominates the page. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 17:43, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Caberouii, I don't support the removal of the image of City Hall, Newham, as this is the headquarters of the GLA and so represents an aspect of the governance of Greater London.
I don't support the inclusion of Harrod's as I'm don't see why that shop in particular should be singled out to represent Greater London.
The image of Canary Wharf from Greenwich is fine, however it's similar to the existing image of the city and so I'm not sure it adds much to the collage. The image of Hampstead Heath was a good contrast as it showed a green space within London. A.D.Hope (talk) 13:32, 6 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
A.D.Hope thanks. The old city hall near Tower Bridge was better, the current one doesn't look nice. Anyways, with regards to hampstead better to replace with Canary wharf from Greenwich (two attractions in 1 image which includes a green area). Caberouii (talk)
Aerial view of London
City of London
Wimbledon
Westminster
Alexandra Palace in Alexandra Park
Hampstead Heath
Maybe we could use any of these? I've never heard anything about a "3 image rule" - which guideline is that based on? –Tobias (talk) 08:57, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The 'three image rule' is based on the consensus at WP:UKGEO, in the WP:ENGCOUNTYCOLLAGE 'guideline'. A.D.Hope (talk) 09:35, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The city of London image shouldn't really be there as it is a separate ceremonial county. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 11:35, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it is one of the central historic sites of the area, so I don't think we can omit it either. –Tobias (talk) 16:10, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The City of London is part of the London administrative area and the London region, both of which this article covers. A.D.Hope (talk) 17:07, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think three images are sufficient for Greater London. It's a county with quite a few notable places that deserve representation after all. I understand that infoboxes shouldn't become cluttered with images, I understand that infoboxes shouldn't be cluttered with too many images, but I’m not sure how applying such a rigid rule uniformly to all ceremonial counties–especially in the case of Greater London–would actually improve the articles. We could potentially omit the heaths, but doing so would overlook the county’s more rural aspects, while overrepresenting the urban and suburban areas. –Tobias (talk) 16:28, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The 'guideline' allows for four images, but I would not support adding more than that. Larger collages take up a lot of space on a page and hit a point of diminishing returns; London uses seven images, for example, and still overlooks large parts of the city.
The current collage shows the City, City Hall, and Hampstead Heath. Together they show Greater London's urban areas, semi-natural areas, and administrative functions, which seems reasonable for an article about administrative areas. A.D.Hope (talk) 17:14, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]